The major difference between having an abortion and selling my kidney is one of health: if I’m having an abortion, it’s safer than going through a pregnancy. It’s like getting chemotherapy for cancer- it may not be fun or 100% but it’s safer than the alternative. If I sell my kidney, I now am less healthy than I was before. And no one is going to sell their kidney because they think “Hey, I’m not using this kidney” they’re going to be going “Hey, I really, really need rent this month” (or worse). Plus, selling your organs means that you are now not allowed to do things you used to be able to do, cutting off a lot of “choice” in how you live. And, I worry about things like bankruptcy- one of the things to declare bankruptcy is that you have to declare all of your assets- I don’t want to declare “kidneys, lungs, liver” on an asset sheet. Basically, I don’t want everything reduced to an economic transaction, including my very self.

And the point about an abortion, is that not all “choices” are equal. I’m not “choosing” not to go dancing tonight: all things being equal (which they’re not) I’d rather go out dancing. But, I don’t have a lot of money, so it’s really not a choice. If it was a choice, I’d have the ability. And this isn’t because I lack the ability to go dancing (I can dance) or I decide to do something else (I’d rather stay in tonight) or there isn’t a venue for dancing- it’s because I don’t have magical pieces of paper telling me I can.

This is a silly example, of course- not being able to go dancing on this particular night isn’t really a human rights issue. But when it comes to things like being healthy, having a house, having enough food to eat, being treated based on my abilities and not my skin color, gender, or socioeconomic status, then damn right I believe in community responsibility. Because a ridiculously small amount of people actual “choose” to be homeless, sick, or discriminated against.

“Oh, I think you’ll get some MAJOR arguments about wanting organs to be sold from a lot of feminists.”

Which is unfortunate, because it really can be equated very nicely with abortion rights. Feminist abortion rhetoric says people should be able to do what they want with their own bodies. Why should it stop with abortion, then? You said the “big difference between libertarian choice and feminist choice is ACTUAL choice.” But the example you just gave – feminists support someone’s choice to do what they will with their uterus but not with their kidneys – speaks to the exact opposite. I’m not saying that feminists DON’T support “actual” choice, just that it’s closed-minded and not at all productive to say that some “choice” is more real than other types of choice.

I’m not sure what point you’re making, Antigone, with the “I have the “choice” to get (an abortion) but at 500 dollars a pop, it’s not likely without some sort of help.” Okay, sure. But what do you think should be done about it? Some outside force should always help everyone be able to make the choices they want to make? I’m not saying that I don’t think legislative policies should make it as easy as possible for women to exercise their choices; I’m against the mandatory waiting periods and all of that stuff that makes choosing to have an abortion more difficult for poor women. But I have to agree with Aaron that I don’t think society is “collectively responsible” for making sure that anyone who wants to can pay for an abortion (perhaps abortions should be included in the medical procedures covered by Medicare, but this gets into a whole argument about the rightness or wrongness of Medicare in the first place that I don’t really feel like getting into). Anyway, as Erin mentioned, there are a lot of resources out there (nonprofits, etc.) that do help low-income women afford reproductive medicine and procedures.

… pointing out that feminism has some overlap with libertarianism isn’t that useful.

Aaron, I disagree; I feel that pointing out that feminism overlaps with libertarianism is useful, because it seems a lot of the people I read and talk to think they have absolutely nothing in common. I was just trying to show that there are points of agreement; I noted that it was probably an exercise in the obvious. Obviously, there will be many points of disagreement between individual feminists and individual libertarians over specific policy matters, but does that really mean that the two should just write each other off and say, hey, we can never work together on anything? That seems less productive to me.

I don’t think Antigone or EE especially were saying the gov’t should force the community to finance abortions … Erin pointed out a nonprofit community group that helps out, which seems like sort of the epitome of the idealized-libertarian-individual-and-community-altruism-helping-people-instead-of-the-government-handing-things-out theory.

Anyway, while there are certainly feminists who believe that the government should fund abortions, or engage in any other number of methods of using gov’t power to “promote what they like and ban what they don’t,” I don’t think these are tenets that one could describe as essential to the concept of feminism, nor central to the beliefs of all feminists. But you’re right – feminism is too often conflated with Democratic party ideals. I guess that’s kind of what I was trying to say – that feminism in and of itself has become too closely tied to one political party or philosophy, when I don’t think there is anything inherent in the notion of political, social and economic equality of the sexes that ties it solely to the Democrats.

Antigone–Check out Pro Choice Resources, based in Minneapolis. They provide funds for low-income women who need/want abortions. I’m with you on the collective responsibility thing.

I think the big difference between libertarian “choice” and feminsim “choice” is ACTUAL choice. I have the “choice” to work wherever I want. In reality, I have a very narrow ability to actually work somewhere that I want; and the option to not work is not anywhere on the table.

Going back to abortion, I have the “choice” to get one, but at 500 dollars a pop, it’s not likely without some sort of help. I believe in collective responsibility, like a lot of feminists, and libertarians don’t seem to.

the thing i most want to say is:

heh heh. you said sex. heh heh.

I got a lot of laughs out of your stereotypes of Libertarians (rich, white males). For some reason I always think of John Stossel when I think of Libertarians. I’m going to work on that now. Thanks for the challenge.